** "Europe has to be more realist about the world....
*** President Trump didn't come out of the blue.... American society"
"The more uncertain the world is, the more unstable the world is, we need countries and we need regions and we need groupings who will add to stability, who will work with each other, who give each other more strength and confidence to do that," External Affairs Minister Dr S Jaishankar said in an interview with TV2 Channel, Denmark.
He was asked:
"I understand Ukraine is not in your immediate geography, but still, it's a huge country invading a small country. Does that give you any sort of concern that this is not what's supposed to be going on?
Dr Jaishankar respeonded: "It certainly is a source of concern, not just for India, but for the entire world, that you have a conflict. You have a conflict now into three years and going, which has impacted the entire world in different ways."
But when referred to Kashmir, Pakistan and China; the External Affairs Minister maintained:
"And the fact is, Europe was very detached about it. In fact, at times, Europe was very cynical about it. Now, I'm not saying that, you know, this leads to that. I'm just saying there's the reality of the world. The reality of the world is that even when you are concerned, those who are closer to the problem, those whose interests are deeper, will have a much more passionate, emotional position.
Those who are, you know, I would get passionate about something close up to me, which Europe may wonder why are the Indians so agitated, or not Indians, but somebody else as well.
"So I think that's natural. But in diplomacy, there cannot be an expectation that other nations will share, will have identical responses. Diplomacy is about finding common ground. That, look, let's agree on something basic and practical. And right now, from the very start, we've been saying something which we feel we are now vindicated three years onwards.
We always said you're not going to get a solution to the Ukraine conflict from the battleground, from the battlefield.
"We also said you're going to have to talk. There's got to be dialogue. There's got to be diplomacy. And there's got to be direct contact. Now, there was a time, you remember, there were these conferences which were going on about gathering countries. Now, we attended those conferences.
But we always said, look, what's the point of gathering everybody else and not having Russia in the room?
Mr. Lippert (Questioner)
: Can I ask you then, because you mentioned an interesting word here, and I think that, to be fair, this is a reality, whether we in Europe recognize that or not, the word cynicism, that there has been a sort of degree of perhaps even cynicism when it comes to regional conflicts around the world that has not affected directly Europe.
Dr Jaishankar : Use the word realism.
Mr. Lippert:
Realism, cynicism, but the fact that you're capable of looking at other interests than just the fact that, for instance, that a country has been invaded.
Well, is there interest to us that differs from the values perspective?
But what I want to ask you is, do you see a world coming now in the years ahead where that kind of, and you may use another word than cynicism, realism, where that kind of cynicism - my word - will sort of play a larger role in how we intervene with each other, how we are with each other as countries?
Dr Jaishankar responded saying -
"You know, I want this to come out the right way. When you started by saying the world is falling apart, I think part of the reason why you have that mindset is because maybe there is inadequate realism, that what in the case of Europe, to be very honest, you had found a sweet spot where largely security concerns were taken care of through the American relationship.
The energy demands were taken care of through the Russian relationship, and the economic trade was taken care of through the China relationship.
So Europe was in a perfect position. Now, what has happened in the last four or five years is each of these aspects have come under stress, to put it mildly.
Mr. Lippert: To put it mildly, yes.
Dr Jaishankar : "Yes. So now this, to my mind, calls for two kinds of responses. But obviously, this is something Europe has to decide.
On the one hand, obviously, Europe has to be strategically more self-reliant or more autonomous or be much more multipolar in its thinking.
Mr. Lippert: Stronger militaries.
Dr Jaishankar : Not just stronger military.
In fact, I have a view that it should be more economic relationship, and I have a self-interest there.
But also, I think Europe has to be more realist about the world, that Europe could take positions.
You know, the whole idea of we'll change the world through trade. We will influence them through negotiations. They will become more like us.
Now, that, to some extent, you could afford that kind of thinking, because somebody was dealing with the nasty stuff, and you didn't have to get your hands dirty.
Now, today, that era is behind you.
So, you know, in that sense, why I use the word realist, I do think, you know, Europe is not just entering a multipolar world.
Europe is also entering an era of greater realism, where it will require, you know, decisions and resources and sacrifices and, in a sense, an understanding of the world, which perhaps you could afford not to have earlier.
Mr Lippert:
Do you think that this is, and this is obviously a conversation that we're having in Europe, and Denmark as well, that the whole idea that, and you also say that, that Europe was somehow a continent that was sort of a beacon to the rest of the world, ...
and we had this self-confidence that if people just got to learn the ways of Europe, then they would, you know, slowly become European-like countries. There is sort of an arrogance to that, I can imagine, when you look at it from outside Europe.
Dr. S. Jaishankar : I'm not saying it.
Mr Lippert:
I can read from your body language, I can't, I'm just joking, but still, that Europe has to learn, in your opinion, that we are not going to make the rest of the world look like us.
Dr Jaishankar : Yes, but I do think that there are many things where Europe can bring value, Europe can, you know, contribute to the larger direction and evolution of the world.
And I think those things one should pick up.
Again, see, the reason why I caution against sort of a despondency is what then happens is even the capabilities, the capacities, the good things which can be done, they then get put on the side, you know.
It is like, oh my God, everything is falling apart. What do I do? The world, you know, the world is such a difficult place.
Nobody knows how to handle it. You don't want to go there. I think there has to be, in a sense, a much more clinical view about, you know, the opportunities, the challenges, the predicaments, the situations, the solutions.
And I say this, you know, as someone who's lived in Europe and worked with Europe for many, many years. I think there is a lot that Europe can do for the world and with the world. And we are a very good example.
I mean, when I come here to Denmark, to me, when I talk about a green strategic partnership or if I say, OK, this is a part of the world where, you know, many of the major global challenges can be talked about and discussed and worked upon.
So for us, I mean, right now, one of my biggest objectives in Europe is to accelerate the free trade agreement.
And I look at the free trade agreement not just as a business deal.
"I mean, to me, it's a much deeper connect between Europe and India and a connect which is not without its strategic implications and overtones.
So Europe has value. Europe is a good partner.
It's our largest economic partner. It's a very important political partner. It's increasingly a security partner. I mean, many of our key security relationships are with individual European countries.
Mr. Lippert: You talk about free trade. And obviously, that is one of the big issues, not just in Europe, but across the world because of the new President in the United States.
Dr. S. Jaishankar : I noticed.
Mr Lippert: You noticed that President Trump is now in the White House.
I just want to ask you a very basic question. The fact that the President of the United States is now Donald Trump, does that make the world – and I understand why you could dismiss this question, but try to follow - does that make the world a better or worse place?
Dr Jaishankar : Look, you know, that's your way of looking at it.
My way of answering it would be that President Donald Trump is a product of his times, that, you know, he didn't come out of the blue. His success in politics is because he resonated with a certain situation in American society.
And that situation, to a large degree, is an outcome of the present model of globalization, where there is a sense of job loss.
There is a sense of stagnating quality of life. There is a sense in America that the way America engages the world is no longer to the benefit of America.
Mr. Lippert: Do you agree with that?
Dr Jaishankar : No. It doesn't matter whether I agree with it. Americans agree with it.
Mr. Lippert: But from an objective perspective, is that true?
Dr. S. Jaishankar : But I can see the Americans thinking that, you know.
So, the point is—and some of it, frankly, from our perspective - I mean, we do see today an over-concentration of manufacturing.
We do see today the international economy impacted.
You know, the rules of trade are impacted by subsidies and state support. And, you know, the reality is there for all of us to see.
You know, it's not just in America that sectors have been wiped out and jobs have been lost. It's happened in my country as well.
And I can tell you the very strong feelings about it. So, you know, when you look at President Donald Trump, I think we have to understand that he is a product of a certain— you know, there's 20, 30 years of what happened in the world, which actually has led to the situation that we have today.
"So, I think if one has to deal with this, which is what I have to do in my responsibility, you address the issues and the underlying factors and the larger, you know, larger framework, rather than, you know, fixate it on a person and a decision and a particular problem.
I mean, that's the way I would respond to it.
Mr. Lippert: You've — just a little less than two weeks ago, President Trump intervened or played a role in the conflict that India has with Pakistan and has since 1948, I think.
And he says that—he said on his own social media platform that he brokered a peace deal. I've heard voices, and you're smiling just a bit. I hear that as a voice as well, that that might not be the whole story.
But my point is, because as I see it, President Trump is going to the world trying to make peace. That's what he's saying. That's his ambition.
Do you agree that his approach, which is perhaps more cynical, which is more transactional, does bring more peace with it than the more ideologically or ideal-based approach that has been for some years now?
Dr. S. Jaishankar :
"Well, first of all, let me — you know, I like this telepathic interview where I just have to smile, and you pick up on it.
So, about where—you know, our part of the world was concerned, because, again, when we look at big global challenges, I think I would put terrorism right up there as one of the key challenges.
It will affect the entire world.
And we've had to grapple with a very serious terrorist attack in April. And what followed was a consequence of that, because the terrorists were based in a neighbouring country and, you know, were operating with impunity and with a high degree of state protection and support.
So, we had the conflict for a few days that you spoke about.
Now, we resolved that conflict for the moment in its particular military form through agreement and understanding for a cessation of firing and military action.
And this was something that we negotiated directly between the militaries of the two countries.
The trigger for it was that, after we had had fighting for a few days, we hit them very hard on a particular morning, the morning of the 10th, to be precise.
And that caused the Pakistanis to say, OK, you know, we're prepared to stop the firing and, you know, reach an understanding about how to deal with it.
So, I just want to, you know, get that part of it across to you. But as a general proposition, I think right now, you know, there's a conflict going on in Ukraine, as I said, into its fourth year.
You have a very, you know, serious situation, again, a lot of bloodshed in the Middle East.
Then there are other aspects to it, Yemen, et cetera, et cetera. So, if you have, I think, a world leader who advocates, you know, conflict resolution and settlement, as a broad principle, obviously, that is to be welcomed.
Now, people can have views about, you know, what's the best course, what should be negotiated, who should negotiate it.
That's a different issue. But I think if one steps back and looks at the world in the last five years, let us say, it's a very difficult world.
And I, you know, the ravages of the COVID, the long term effects, what it has done to societies in many countries. And top of it, then, multiple conflicts. I mean, and each of these conflicts—I spoke about how Ukraine has affected food, fuel and fertilizer.
Look at the Middle East. I mean, it has completely messed up shipping and, you know, the maritime traffic between Asia and Europe. And that actually has very serious economic and job implications for people.
So, we need, you know, we need today an effort, ideally collective, but, you know, we know realistically that it doesn't work that way.
Different countries need to find ways of, you know, bringing down the temperature, getting people to talk, encouraging people to talk.
And we believe that is best done in situations where people talk to each other directly.
To another question, Dr Jaishankar answered in details :
"....the reason you see me smiling is I am thinking as a country, a democracy, who were invaded by a military dictatorship to my west, which was supported for multiple decades by European countries, Western bloc as a whole. So, I reflect on it.
Again, purpose of that is not to say bad things happen to us and that therefore justifies it happening elsewhere.
But to say that, look, in some ways, that's why I use the word realism. Countries or groupings cannot say that we will only do business with people who are like us. You know, if that is the case, why is Europe even present in many parts of Asia? Surely the places where Europe has the most business are not societies and polities which are similar to Europe.
But Europe has no problem doing that. You know, so often the very values which are so important to you closer to home - and I understand that - apparently don't matter, or matter less the farther you leave your shores and go out.
So the standards applied to doing business or engaging other countries in Asia is different from or I could argue in Africa is different from what you would yourself apply in your close proximity.
So, which is why, you know, I'm not saying value.
I do appreciate values to matter because all of us, if we have a belief and a way of, you know, of thinking and behaving at home, it's a natural human trait to want to do it abroad, you know.
"So I would relate, say, to you as a person from a democratic polity in a way in which I would not to someone who's not from a democratic society. You would intuitively understand, let us say, the pluralism or the diversity of our views."
ends
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